Oil sump collar

[chuckhahn]

I have been looking for the oil sump extention collar that was part of the "fix" back in 74 for the oil foaming situation.  Does anyone happen to have a 74 engine laying around thats junk and would sell the sump collar??

I am assuming the 73 and 74 lower cases were the same shape too.

Second question is what is the absolute very BEST oil with anti foaming properties that I can buy for this 73 engine.  Bikes been setting idle since i sourced new cam blocks and an NOS cam and rebuilt the top end for fer of the oil foaming and eating it apart again. Can someone give me some ROCK SOLID oil information please.  If I can be assured the oil isnt gonna foam I would feel so much better about being able to ride my bike.

[bigskyforever]

I believe somewhere on this forum ARGO provided a technical approach to oil weight and what oil to use to reduce engine wear in the heat range this engine operates. I believe he mentioned a 10W60 oil. I just don't remember where it is on the forum.

[bra725t]

Best advice for getting a oil dump extension collar is watch eBay.de
Picked one up for my 1973 tx a month ago in as new condition. Seems to be more of the rare spares appearing In Germany at the moment. It's the same sump fittings for the73 amd74 models. I'll be using 20/50 oil in my tx, shouldn't have to many heat problems in Scotland during the summer when the average temp is the High teens!

[argo1974]

Oil foaming usually affects rod and crank bearing shells first. A four stroke engine looses about 75% of its heat through cylinder head. In case of camshaft failure, the oil wasn't there or didn't withstand the high temperatures. Check cam block positioning bushings for covering oil galleries, this is common issue!!!
Newer type cam blocks came with oil pockets on cam bearing surfaces, this will ensure lubrication at cold start.
Known brand heavy weight (10W-60, 15W-60) synthetic motorcycle (JASO MA1 or MA2) oils are the way to go.

[tr1ppler]

I found this on instagram but based on the e-bay store they haven't made these yet. But I'd be interested as the extensions aren't always readily available on ebay.

http://instagram.com/p/BSkjpj8gB5y

[farmrjohn]

I hope they do produce them even though my '74 has one.

[Rasputin]

I know this subject has been discussed to the earth end, but. Here is my take on the subject. The TX engine is a dry sump system, we all know what that means, When running the scavenge pump, that has twice the pumping capacity of the pressure pump, it is, so that the sump cannot fill up and cause excess smoking. When the scavenge pump has drawn all the oil from the bottom it sucks air and oil mix back to tank, this is airiateed ie, has bubbles in it. I don't think the balance weights whip up the oil like a food mixer. It's the oil return pump that returns airiated oil to the tank. In the tank the bubbles settle out of the body of oil therein. The pressure side of the pump is fed from the tank and feeds the crank bearings and rockers under pressure. Excess oil from the crank is splashed all around the crankcase and lubricates the cylinder walls, falling back to the sump and so the cycle goes on.
I have heard post that convert the scavenge side into the main feed, having twice the volume can't be a good thing because as the volume of oil cannot escape through the restrictions in the bearings, the relief valve has to cope with the excess and as you can imagine it's not designed to cope with all that flow.
To surmise a Triumph twin has the same system and if you ever look at the return coming back to the tank it's full of bubbles. But no engine problems with those bikes.
Your thoughts are invited.

[scrambler]

Rasputin, I brought up this issue regarding the significance of the deep sump in an earlier post, and I agree with you that in normal conditions the balance shafts shouldn`t whip the oil on the bottom of the crankcase as there is not much oil there if the scavanging pump keeps up with the feed pump, which is normally the case. I can imagine a scenario when the check valve remains open and the oil from the tank leaks down to the crankcase, in this case the deep sump may help, but this condition does not last longer than a couple of minutes after the engine starts. Aeration is enhanced when the engine is hot, thus having an oil cooler seems more important to me than having the deep sump collar attached. IMHO, deep sump has a slight contribution to the deaeration, given by its deeper extension and consequently being more exposed to air cooling. See also Argo`s comments about how the engine benefits from aeration and how all this depends on the oil being used, I found  them very useful. 

Converting the scavanging pump to the main feed makes no sense to me, if you look at the video I uploaded earlier, you can see that at quite low rpm the relief valve opens and all the excessive oil drains to the sump. The same would happen by fusing the two oil pumps, just triple amount of oil would get wasted.

[argo1974]

@ian/Greg
1) Yes, scavenge pump causes a lot of oil aeration you see as oil foam/bubbles inside oil tank.
TX engine has Eaton type impeller oil pumps and positioning the scavenge pump 10" high in the engine block does not quite meet Eaton's design requirements. E.g. on Honda SOHC 750, both pumps are sitting low in the oil sump. This is one of the main reasons I don't like sump extension collar on TX.

2) Lower half of the engine incl. oil pan is divided into 3 sections. The center section with balancer weights does not have any oil suction galleries. Scavenge pump will empty the outer two sections only. Therefore, any oil entering the center section is subject to whipping by balancer weights until it's thrown/splashed back to the crank area. On its way back, the oil has to overcome a height difference of around 4". Quite a bad design though.

3) Bigger oil feed pump makes no sense since stock pump is big enough. On stock engine, oil relief valve already opens at 2250 rpm. So bigger pump could provide more flow from 1000 (idle) to 2250 rpm only. If you're after more flow from 2250 rpm upwards, relief valve opening pressure should be set higher. Adding another stock shim is usually enough (and safe). With even more shims oil relief valve could start fluttering. Oil pressure from the feed pump is just to fill the bearings while the bearings create their internal oil pressure around 10 - 20 times higher by themselves.

4) What's the most significant drawback of the TX engine? Oil whipping? Nope, it's the excessive temperature. Smooth engine surfaces, double covered with polished covers, with interference pipe in front of the cylinder head, starter motor covering the front area, it just runs too hot. So big oil cooler is #1 feature to extend engine life. With modern oils, foaming is less an issue, while moderate temperatures due to added oil cooler will reduce the foaming problem extra.

[scrambler]

Argo,

Interesting point, I didn`t realize the compartmentalization of the sump. Would it make sense to merge these compartments by drilling the hole in between to minimize the chance of whipping? 

Regarding the scavanging pump, when I assembled the system the scavanging pump could pick up oil+air from a plastic box placed about 70 cm below oil pump with quite high efficacy, I was impressed. 

[argo1974]

Greg,

once you remove drain screw from oil pan, you'll realize how these 3 sections are connected for draining the oil from the engine. With different oil drain screw, you could have them permanently connected. This is not a good idea though, since center section with balancers is sitting lower than the other two sections. So you will direct all of the oil collecting in the oil pan, to the balancers. Also, lowest suction level of the scavenge pump will remain the same with R. H. section. Yamaha designed the oil pan just in reverse - side sections should have been sitting lower, not the center. Unfortunately they didn't correct it even later but added a hunk of sump extension collar instead.

There are general design requirements (max oil speed in the input/output, suction heights, etc.) for Eaton type oil pumps. Those pumps are widely used in automotive area. Unfortunately TX oiling system design doesn't quite meet Eaton's requirements. Therefore, TX suction pump's proper function at all possible conditions isn't 100% sure. In pre-series bikes, the scavenge pump was narrower, so Yamaha had to re-design it already. Yamaha messed around with ill-fated oiling systems a lot back then, if I remember correctly, TX750's successor XS750 had 3 different oil pump designs.

[bra725t]

If your still looking for a collar there's a couple appeared in the USA on eBay

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361986993338?_mwBanner=1&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F0%252Fe11021.m43.l1120%252F7%253Feuid%253D338a6c908d024fd682cb0987550a222c%2526bu%253D43130974651%2526loc%253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ebay.co.uk%25252Fulk%25252Fitm%25252F361986993338%2526sojTags%253Dbu%253Dbu%2526srcrot%253De11021.m43.l1120%2526rvr_id%253D0&ul_noapp=true&redirect=mobile